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	<title>Comments on: Torture and American Christianity</title>
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	<link>http://atheology.com/2007/12/25/torture-and-american-christianity/</link>
	<description>n. against God or gods, anti-theology, the defense of naturalism</description>
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		<title>By: Jon Trott</title>
		<link>http://atheology.com/2007/12/25/torture-and-american-christianity/comment-page-1/#comment-312</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Trott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 17:14:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Late to this post&#039;s discussion, but as an Evangelical Christian I am absolutely outraged at my subculture&#039;s support for waterboarding. Christ Himself was tortured. Yet here we are, siding with Christ&#039;s tormentors. All I can say -- nearly with tears -- is that I am so sorry for the wretched, disgusting, and completely unchristian position the so-called &quot;Christian Right&quot; has taken on torture. I speak out against torture whenever and wherever possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Late to this post&#8217;s discussion, but as an Evangelical Christian I am absolutely outraged at my subculture&#8217;s support for waterboarding. Christ Himself was tortured. Yet here we are, siding with Christ&#8217;s tormentors. All I can say &#8212; nearly with tears &#8212; is that I am so sorry for the wretched, disgusting, and completely unchristian position the so-called &#8220;Christian Right&#8221; has taken on torture. I speak out against torture whenever and wherever possible.</p>
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		<title>By: OzAtheist</title>
		<link>http://atheology.com/2007/12/25/torture-and-american-christianity/comment-page-1/#comment-168</link>
		<dc:creator>OzAtheist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2008 02:03:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://atheology.com/2007/12/25/torture-and-american-christianity/#comment-168</guid>
		<description>Rastaban, much the same as what I think, which is why I had a problem with Sam Harris&#039; arguments. A torture victim may tell you &lt;em&gt;what you want to hear&lt;/em&gt; not necessarily what they know/believe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rastaban, much the same as what I think, which is why I had a problem with Sam Harris&#8217; arguments. A torture victim may tell you <em>what you want to hear</em> not necessarily what they know/believe.</p>
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		<title>By: Rastaban</title>
		<link>http://atheology.com/2007/12/25/torture-and-american-christianity/comment-page-1/#comment-166</link>
		<dc:creator>Rastaban</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2008 00:31:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://atheology.com/2007/12/25/torture-and-american-christianity/#comment-166</guid>
		<description>Oz, I don&#039;t see any circumstances in which torture should ever be legal. From a moral perspective, there are rare circumstances in which the only choices are repugnant. Thus it is possible to imagine a scenario in which torture might be less morally repugnant than any viable alternative. But these are also scenarios in which torture is least likely to work.

Why is that? Because normally there are lots of viable alternatives. It is only when time is running out that you are likely to also run low on viable alternatives. Thus the scenarios in which torture might become the least repugnant alternative are also those scenarios in which there is very little time to work with. But torture only generates reliable information when the torturers are sure that their victim has the specific information they need and when they can credibly promise the victim that they will torture him/her again in the future if it turns out they have lied.

Consider the popular scenario in which authorities have captured one of the Islamic suicide-terrorists involved with planting a nuclear bomb in the city. If the terrorist knows where the bomb is and when it will go off, he only has to wait until he&#039;s tortured and then provide false information (he was probably trained to do so). Time is on his side, unfortunately. This is not a promising scenario for torture to be successful (nor perhaps any other technique). And if the terrorist does not in fact know the necessary details, torture will at best draw out false information which will likewise waste authorities&#039; precious time.

Torture seems to be most promising as a technique when you hold the victim for weeks or months and have plenty of time to torture them in retaliation for false information -- with time you can break them down and give them no hope for relief from being tortured. But when there is this much time, there are always many civilized alternatives to torture which will be far less morally repugnant.

So torture should always be illegal. But if a torturer can demonstrate in court that there was so little time that torture was the least morally repugnant alternative available, as a juror I&#039;d consider that exculpatory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oz, I don&#8217;t see any circumstances in which torture should ever be legal. From a moral perspective, there are rare circumstances in which the only choices are repugnant. Thus it is possible to imagine a scenario in which torture might be less morally repugnant than any viable alternative. But these are also scenarios in which torture is least likely to work.</p>
<p>Why is that? Because normally there are lots of viable alternatives. It is only when time is running out that you are likely to also run low on viable alternatives. Thus the scenarios in which torture might become the least repugnant alternative are also those scenarios in which there is very little time to work with. But torture only generates reliable information when the torturers are sure that their victim has the specific information they need and when they can credibly promise the victim that they will torture him/her again in the future if it turns out they have lied.</p>
<p>Consider the popular scenario in which authorities have captured one of the Islamic suicide-terrorists involved with planting a nuclear bomb in the city. If the terrorist knows where the bomb is and when it will go off, he only has to wait until he&#8217;s tortured and then provide false information (he was probably trained to do so). Time is on his side, unfortunately. This is not a promising scenario for torture to be successful (nor perhaps any other technique). And if the terrorist does not in fact know the necessary details, torture will at best draw out false information which will likewise waste authorities&#8217; precious time.</p>
<p>Torture seems to be most promising as a technique when you hold the victim for weeks or months and have plenty of time to torture them in retaliation for false information &#8212; with time you can break them down and give them no hope for relief from being tortured. But when there is this much time, there are always many civilized alternatives to torture which will be far less morally repugnant.</p>
<p>So torture should always be illegal. But if a torturer can demonstrate in court that there was so little time that torture was the least morally repugnant alternative available, as a juror I&#8217;d consider that exculpatory.</p>
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		<title>By: OzAtheist</title>
		<link>http://atheology.com/2007/12/25/torture-and-american-christianity/comment-page-1/#comment-170</link>
		<dc:creator>OzAtheist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 00:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://atheology.com/2007/12/25/torture-and-american-christianity/#comment-170</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t condone torture, particularly something as horrible as waterboarding, however, do you see any instance when some form of torture could be acceptable?
I recently read Sam Harris&#039; &#039;The End of Faith&#039; in which he has a section on torture, most of which I didn&#039;t agree with; but I could see some of his argument for torture in some circumstances.
In case you don&#039;t have the book, the following link has some commentary in response to the controversies he raised in his book:
http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/response-to-controversy2/

Christians should be ashamed of any form of torture or violence, after all didn&#039;t jesus teach &#039;love thy neighbor&#039; and &#039;do unto other as you would have them do to you&#039;?   :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t condone torture, particularly something as horrible as waterboarding, however, do you see any instance when some form of torture could be acceptable?<br />
I recently read Sam Harris&#8217; &#8216;The End of Faith&#8217; in which he has a section on torture, most of which I didn&#8217;t agree with; but I could see some of his argument for torture in some circumstances.<br />
In case you don&#8217;t have the book, the following link has some commentary in response to the controversies he raised in his book:<br />
<a href="http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/response-to-controversy2/" rel="nofollow">http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/response-to-controversy2/</a></p>
<p>Christians should be ashamed of any form of torture or violence, after all didn&#8217;t jesus teach &#8216;love thy neighbor&#8217; and &#8216;do unto other as you would have them do to you&#8217;?   <img src='http://atheology.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Rastaban</title>
		<link>http://atheology.com/2007/12/25/torture-and-american-christianity/comment-page-1/#comment-169</link>
		<dc:creator>Rastaban</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 13:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://atheology.com/2007/12/25/torture-and-american-christianity/#comment-169</guid>
		<description>Matthew, in saying that Christianity has &quot;a long historical association&quot; with torture, I&#039;m not saying that &lt;em&gt;only&lt;/em&gt; Christianity has an association with torture, or that other entities don&#039;t have horrible associations. I&#039;m certainly not saying that religion or Christianity are the &lt;em&gt;cause&lt;/em&gt; of torture -- in fact I specifically said otherwise. I wrote &quot;It happens not because they are Christians or even because they are religious, but because they have a personality trait which certain religions both encourage and attract.&quot;  And I referred the reader to Altemeyer&#039;s book, The Authoritarians, to understand this.

I fully agree that there is an historical association between communist totalitarian regimes like the Soviet Union and China and mass murder, imprisonment of political opponents, and other unforgivable practices. And those regimes were officially atheist and they suppressed religious liberty. Which mean that atheism has a definite association with those horrible behaviors. All atheists today should resoundingly condemn mass murder, imprisonment of political opponents, and other infringements on human rights. Just as (this is my point) all Christians today should resoundingly condemn torture.

We must never forget that people who believed like us did horrible things. And unfortunately, in the case of the Bush administration, are doing horrible things in our name today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matthew, in saying that Christianity has &#8220;a long historical association&#8221; with torture, I&#8217;m not saying that <em>only</em> Christianity has an association with torture, or that other entities don&#8217;t have horrible associations. I&#8217;m certainly not saying that religion or Christianity are the <em>cause</em> of torture &#8212; in fact I specifically said otherwise. I wrote &#8220;It happens not because they are Christians or even because they are religious, but because they have a personality trait which certain religions both encourage and attract.&#8221;  And I referred the reader to Altemeyer&#8217;s book, The Authoritarians, to understand this.</p>
<p>I fully agree that there is an historical association between communist totalitarian regimes like the Soviet Union and China and mass murder, imprisonment of political opponents, and other unforgivable practices. And those regimes were officially atheist and they suppressed religious liberty. Which mean that atheism has a definite association with those horrible behaviors. All atheists today should resoundingly condemn mass murder, imprisonment of political opponents, and other infringements on human rights. Just as (this is my point) all Christians today should resoundingly condemn torture.</p>
<p>We must never forget that people who believed like us did horrible things. And unfortunately, in the case of the Bush administration, are doing horrible things in our name today.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://atheology.com/2007/12/25/torture-and-american-christianity/comment-page-1/#comment-167</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2007 07:57:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://atheology.com/2007/12/25/torture-and-american-christianity/#comment-167</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right about Christians&#039; moral failure. However, you&#039;re not right to link torture to Christianity or even to religion. The atheist USSR and China have been guilty of atrocities at least equal to anything that has ever taken place in Christendom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right about Christians&#8217; moral failure. However, you&#8217;re not right to link torture to Christianity or even to religion. The atheist USSR and China have been guilty of atrocities at least equal to anything that has ever taken place in Christendom.</p>
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