Last month God and China got pissed off at the committee that awards the Nobel Prize. China because the Peace Prize went to someone they threw in prison for advocating democracy. And God? Well, Robert Edwards won the Nobel Prize for Medicine for his contribution to the development of In-vitro Fertilization (IVF) in the 1960’s. The award promptly raised the ire of the Vatican, whose position is that Edwards is not a hero but rather someone who has contributed to evil in the world. Since the development of IVF, about 4 million “test tube babies” have been born. The Church—and presumably God—is not happy about it.
In-Vitro Fertilization Diagram
Why wouldn’t God be happy about a procedure that has allowed millions of couples to have babies who otherwise weren’t able to? Well, it appears he didn’t intend for these couples to have babies, and what happened? They did an end-around with this IVF malarky.
Look at it from God’s point of view. Traditionally he’s been in full control of the creation of new beings—and each new being means a new soul must be created. The production and punishment of souls is God’s primary business. Heretofore, he’s been the one to decide not only when but if a new soul will be united with a physical body and brought into life. Now, science has taken that away from him.
Wouldn’t you be pissed?
Christians, especially those unmarried men at the Vatican, think God is very upset. God is so pissed about IVF that Cathy Lynn Grossman, author of the USA Today religion blog Faith & Reason, decided ask her readers if they thought God considered IVF children to be real children? Do they even have souls?
Now I’m sure no one, regardless of their religion, denies that IVF babies are real babies with human souls.
But here’s the rub. Christians adamantly reject the notion that the soul is a product of biology. They disagree with scientists who see consciousness (and the ability to make moral choices about how to behave) as something gradually developing in the womb and after birth as a baby grows. It’s not that Christians deny that our bodies are biological entities. But Christians insist that our soul—our consciousness and free will—does not have a biological source. The soul, they maintain, is a spiritual entity which comes from God.
If soul is to be a separate entity of its own, not just something that results from biological development, then it has to join the body all at once, in a unitary moment. The soul can’t be something that gradually comes into existence over months or years. Furthermore, the magical fusion of body with soul must be God’s doing.
This last point is important because it gets to the heart of God’s role in the whole life business. According to Christianity, God assigns our soul to a body at the beginning of our life, and then at the end God decides whether or not we are deserving of going to heaven. This joining of soul with body therefore has a divine purpose—to judge the soul’s fitness for eternity at God’s side. The cruel act of saddling the soul with a temporal, flawed body is all a part of God’s rather elaborate testing operation.
In short, God creates souls and then tests us—these souls—for fitness by combining us with biologically limited bodies and placing us into trying circumstances. And the reason is to find out which of us are good enough to be trusted for eternity in heaven. Not all Christians see it exactly this way. Some denominations believe our souls will not be judged for how we behave but only for whether or not we accept the redeemer, Jesus Christ, into our hearts. A test of a different sort, in other words, but still a test which we either pass or fail.
The difficulty is how to reconcile all of this with in-vitro fertilization.
God is supposed to be in charge of the creation of souls. He is supposed to be in charge of deciding when and if a soul will be combined with a body and therefore a new test of a soul will be done. But IVF makes it look for all the world as if God is not in control of the creation of souls at all, much less his whole soul-testing experiment.
When babies are the result of the rather uncertain hit or miss of sexual intercourse, it is easy to imagine that God has some hand in making pregnancy happen—at least for those who are inclined to a supernatural worldview. But now that scientists are deliberately creating new babies in test tubes, it looks like God no longer has any control over the matter. Now he is forced to test souls whether he wants to or not.
So yeah, if there’s a God, he’s got to be pissed. And the theologians in the Catholic Church have got to be pissed too, because now they have to explain away one more thing about life that no longer requires their God.
If god is all powerful can’t he decide which IVF embryos survive. What difference should it make to him if the egg is fertilized inside a body or in a test tube. Would it help if the little blastulas were baptised.
I am a 20 year old woman, conceived through IVF technology.
My parents, as well as most of my family, are very very Catholic. When my mom first began trying to conceive through IVF, my uncle told her to repent. When she became pregnant with me, his son (a priest) said I would be born without a soul.
I found this out thirteen years later. As you may guess, I am one of the non-Catholics in the family.
@kdsjad: It’s a pity that priest said that about you, but he is not God almighty, nor is he a man of very much power. No priest’s words should be taken for the word of God. That is what encyclicals, constitutions, ecumenical councils, doctrine, and dogma are for. Read.
As for the point of this article, it is a false point. We’ve only asserted that God knows everything, not that he does everything.
The real problems with IVF are threefold:
1) that there is a risk of the embryo not latching on and dying. Seeing that that embryo is human, we should not risk its death.
2) Very often the cultivated embryos die, either in their freezers or being butchered for research.
3) The child is no longer the product of two people coming together in love for a procreative act. Reproduction becomes a science project, a mechanical process, manufacturing human life instead of creating it.
In short, the problem with IVF isn’t that God doesn’t have control. It takes the humanity away from the embryo. It dehumanises life and makes it into another process.
Saw this, couldn’t let it slide. So much of what you’ve written doesn’t make sense.
“encyclicals, constitutions, ecumenical councils, doctrine, and dogma”? Who do you think wrote these? The same men you just said don’t have very much power.
“We’ve only asserted that God knows everything, not that he does everything.” He’s all powerful and all knowing. That means he can choose to act or not act to stop or start anything. Ergo he is responsible for everything that happens. When a bad thing happens, he either didn’t care to, or was unable to, stop it.
“that there is a risk of the embryo not latching on and dying. Seeing that that embryo is human, we should not risk its death.” As there is with a natural pregnancy. What’s the difference? God is the biggest abortionist of all time, with about 20% of pregnancies ending in miscarriage that God could have stopped.
“Very often the cultivated embryos die, either in their freezers or being butchered for research”. Butchered for research? Please, grow up. They are small clumps of cells. You kill more viable cells when you cut yourself shaving.
“Reproduction becomes a science project”. It always was a science project. The male sperm and female eggs, and the womb, are just natures periti dish. “two people coming together in love”, so how come god allows rapists to father babies?
“It takes the humanity away from the embryo”. Humanity is given by the act of being human. Don’t you dare try to invalidate a human life because of how it was brought into the world. This sums the religious mindset up in a nutshell. The sooner your backwards way of thinking is consigned to the dark ages, the better.
How can a process which is creating life be dehumanizing life?
1and 2)Embryo can die due to so many other reasons even in a natural conception, IVF may have a higher rate but then science would come along to tackle it I believe.
I served in my country’s army for 5 years, seeing so many decorated officers die in my battalion for various reasons never made me question my decision nor made my country question my presence.
3) Love making is anyways condemned in so many religions, with Christianity exalting the Immaculate Conception. How then can love making be the right way of producing babies? To take the logic to a lil extreme, the babies born out of forceful or unplanned pregnancies may also be also be considered dehumanized. I guess Vatican anyways does that.
Respect and Peace
IVF is the immaculate conception
The problem with it is this: The Divine Plan is for husband and wife to procreate in the confines of Holy Matrimony, thus creating the best environment for the development of a child into a holy family blessed by God. Anything outside this Plan is not blessed, but cursed. The Bible has said so for millenia. Read it. (We all know the consequences when unwed mothers give birth, the fathers are absent, and society has to care for and bear the burden of these children. And we know what happens to most of those children later in life.)
The soul is created by God and placed into the human body at the moment of conception. The Book of Jeremiah quotes God as saying, ~ I knew you before I formed you in the womb.~ Thus stating that God had this Plan for souls He created as He placed them into human beings.
In test tubes, God is not there. This is not a natural course of conception. There is no human womb. There is no infusement (so-to-speak) of the spirituality which occurs in the love of a husband and wife in the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony in the natural conception of a child into a family. God does not “bless” this act of scientific experimentation in which man “plays God.” In fact, He condemns it as anathema. Likewise, so does the Catholic Church, that is, the True Catholic Church, and not the offshoot schismatic abominations now calling themselves the Catholic Church.
Adolf Hitler “played God” during WW2 and the Holocaust. He experimented along with Dr. Mengela and his ilk with test tube babies, lobotomies, cloning, and the widespread use of steroids in conjunction with invitro-fertilization in the hopes of creating an Arian Superhuman race. He did years of experimentation especially on twins and triplets, desiring to find the secret to the “cloning” of humans to further his NWO agenda of a Super Race of humans. He wanted to get rid of God’s Chosen People (this is Satan talking), and create his own line of morphs. And he did. And he cremated and slaughtered all of God’s Chosen people and then some in a vile attempt to rid the world of God’s Souls.
The combination of cloning and steroids created people without conscience, without depth, without spirituality (or soul). Mankind, in this regard, IS NOT CREATED IN THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF GOD, as the Bible tells us God created Man. The human body, in this regard, IS NOT THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, as the Bible tells us God created Man to be. It is a cluster of cells created in a petri-dish, divided, prodded, and watered like a seeded plant, and then transplanted to another better environment in the hopes that it will grow further. There is no soul infusement into these creatures. They are soul-less!
In the same breath, animals that are cloned, plant seeds that are genetically-modified have no soul either as God intended their types to be. These are soul-less also.
And Hitler, while creating this so-called Master Race, hoped that with the infusion of steroids, he could create a soul-less, strong, muscled, dominant race of beings that could be programmed any way he wanted them to be. (Look how dumb and stupid steroid-riddled athletes are after years of this drug infliction!) They did not have the Divine Finger of God infusing anything into them. Therefore, they can be programmed differently. Mankind is inherently good because of his Creator. It is the freewill that gets in Man’s way, and the deception of Satan and his devils and demons for an ulterior motive.
Therefore, under no circumstances does a test-tube human, animal or plant life contain a soul on any level!
Indeed!
The Book of Bible (and every other religious/spiritual scripture of all the culturally constructed sects/groups/religion/state religion) said what it said when man had already traversed the path from being a unicellular entity into a ‘thinking’ multi-cellular organism. The contents of these sacred books were coded by thinking men, as revealed to them by God. And since then, all of us have tried to follow them.
Some how, none of the books reveal at which point of human evolution did God transplant the ‘soul’ in all of us blessed selves who are born through natural process.
Or should we just follow that it, indeed, started from Adam and Eve, and if yes, then why didn’t the first-borns themselves follow the expectations of ‘soul-full’ creation?
Or may be the Satan in form of Serpent took away their souls, which then brought in their ‘free-will’ and then they did what they did to suffer the ‘Fall’.
God didnt quite have them to be, what ‘he intended them to be’.
But then, the question is what are these ‘soul-less creatures’ anyways.
Jehovah said ‘I am’, and thats all he said when asked who he was.
For he was everything and anything that can be or not be.
Then may be, the poor ‘soul-less’ are also Jehovah, for even ‘they are’
And when Christ (blessed be his name) said that he is the way, the truth, the life, he never quite mentioned that he is the ‘soul-full life’, so may be these poor ‘soul-less’ beings are Christ.
But then, since Bible never says this, so we shall also ignore it.
So essentially, we have men who can think, and men who can think and also have a soul. And what tells a man that he has a soul, well may be his thinking process conditioned by the Bible, Ramayan, Quran…. which again were written by thinking men because till the time he didnt learn to think, God never revealed itself to him.
Why did God waited for man to start thinking?
Because may be, God had ‘always been’ and was felt by even non-living. But how can the thinking man has same stature as a non-living. He could think, and think that he is better , and he is better only if he is the first, the first born, or the first thought, if not the God, at-least he is closest to God, and if he is closest to God, God should talk to him, and Lo and Behold! in the very next thought, God revealed itself to him.
So he came back, wrote a book on what he thought God has told him and those book we all follow.
Just one question. If there really be a Supreme God, how can anything ‘created’ be un-godly?
He is what is, for what will be, from what was, and none of it.
He is.
And so is everything.
This is an atheology blog, and I anyways do not believe in the concept of God.
But if there be one, then he is the only one and everything in it and outside.
I used ‘He’, ‘Man’ only out of the usual stupid writing habit. Please ignore the gender thingy.
Love and Respect.
People, people. God has giving man the ability to cure diseases, perform life saving surgeries, and make medicines. There is nothing made in this world without God.
God has to be in the creation of a IVF baby because it has a SOUL AND SPIRIT. Man didn’t put the soul and spirit in the body. God breath into Adams nostrils and man became a living soul. The only thing that the doctors do is help form the body.
“Therefore, under no circumstances does a test-tube human, animal or plant life contain a soul on any level!”
Well Jane, since when did an animal or plant supposedly even have a soul, and more importantly, who says there even is a god, you?
Jerk Off!!!!
No one has a soul.
The soul hypothesis is a part of the god hypothesis.
There is not sufficient evidence supporting the latter, therefore there is none supporting the former.
It does not matter whatever you are.
You do not have a soul.
The only thing that you, as a human have is a heightened consciousness.
Oh man! Sorry for the confusion.
The comment
“No one has a soul.
The soul hypothesis is a part of the god hypothesis.
There is not sufficient evidence supporting the latter, therefore there is none supporting the former.
It does not matter whatever you are.
You do not have a soul.
The only thing that you, as a human have is a heightened consciousness.”
was made by me.
I did not see that there was another George here too!
Look at this another way:
God does not exist. Science can disprove that theory, and substitutes the Big Bang.
Thus, there is no problem with science making children instead.
Also, I think IVF is a very swell idea if a couple has troubles producing a child.
To George Dabre:
I agree.
Anyone who truly believes in the Lord will first look at what God has to say and there are 750 references about the soul in the Bible. The first mention in the book of Genesis is that God breathes breath (neshamah) into man and he became a living soul. So through out scripture you can see that God gives and takes life, lets remember that the soul is life and a test tube baby after birth has life. The real issue is not does a person have a soul but does a person have a new birth and that is what this smoke screen about having a soul is all about. Lets talk about all the individuals who are judging and be concerned with do we have the living eternal spirit. So we know all living have souls but not all have asked forgiveness and given their will to the Lord. Accept a new birth through the one and only mediator Jesus Christ. If any man be in Christ He is a new creature, old things have passed away, behold all things have become new.
Please.. let God Judge… its not for you deliberate….this is simply mental masturbation..
arrogant to state that God is angry… Perhaps hes angry at you…
take up a good cause instead
I pers. & still, by eye, don’t think that God, That Pig, can deny Its Existence, however, if It(!) exists, Its Existence is against me being just myself, yet without any idea, whatsoever that I can fail to rely on it to be good enough of me to be myself, on to other hand & as far, as I’M concerned, my only & good news is still my repetitive ‘testimony(!)’ to being happy to avoid counting on Its ‘Famous’ Palace, (The One That I per sé don’t count on), so I can find out & so on, greetings, ‘J.A.,’ guit_artie@yahoo.dk, – as I believed in trying to be just myself, there were Many Corrupt Museum Piece Capitalist Pigs, Who even indirectly, by eye & after all gave me no right, no good idea, whatsoever that I could get away with it, unless It was Each Other Themselves, Who could get away with being against me being ‘just’ myself, any suggestions, please, – what of it?
That is, guit underscore artie etc., H. N. Year to You All.
If you don’t believe in God, this is moot. Clearly, any discussion between believers and non believers on this is going to be the dialogue of the deaf. However, even if you do believe, it’s quite the non-issue. Children of rape are fully formed children and the Church protects their right to life, but the Church certainly isn’t in favor of rape. Same goes for test tube babies. They are people and therefore have souls. The sins of the father should not be visited on the sons (let’s take the Ezekiel 18:19-20 approach on that one). How can the tiny ones be blamed for their parents’ sins?
IVF is not a sin James H.
and how did i get into this discussion with a bunch of fouled up folks who have no reverence for life. … i must leave.
Joram, what in the he*l were you trying to say, you illiterate bas*ard, you!
Why is it not a continuation of GODS work? Just as we plant trees and grass-
we play GOD all the time! With landscaping, and fruit even animals- creating mew animal species – playing GOD with puppies and kitties essentially it’s the same concept, same argument, but it just seems less important when it’s not human life. So in taking the later for comparison purpose – humans creat designer dog breeds. I happen to have a designer hybrid dog- a schnoodle – I hardly look at him and think he doesn’t have a soul. As a matter of fact, the opposite. Sure, there’s a big difference between animals, and plant-life – and human life- but a soul is a soul, yes? What’s the difference? GOD knows all – he knows what’s happening. I’m certain that he rations out the souls regardless of if they were created in a lab or the old fashioned way. GOD gave us the knowledge to continue HIS work… And he certainly works in mysterious ways.
I did enjoy everyone’s comments here- many great points!!
??? ?? ??
I think some peoples comments on here are outrageous!
I remember sitting at school and being told by my religious studies teacher that I will go to hell as I am a test tube baby.
I personally think the way you were brought up and brought in to this world has got nothing to do with whether you are going to hell or heaven.
I am sure there are plenty of naturally concieved christians that have done plenty more sins than me.
I like to see myself as Christian but when some Christians are this shallow about topics such as test tube babys, I find it disgraceful.
Jane your thoughts are disgusting; Therefore, under no circumstances does a test-tube human, animal or plant life contain a soul on any level!
I understand where you are coming from but your thoughts are immoral.
According to your statement I should be killed and eaten as steak, as I have no soul.
Personally, as someone born from IVF, I find it both frustrating and degrading that so many people consider people like myself to lack a soul just because of this fact. I didn’t decide to be born in this way, that was beyond my control. I was born normally, I grew up as part of a family as any other normal child world. I feel things, I hurt, I laugh, I smile, like any other person would. It’s not my mothers fault that she couldn’t have kids, that was beyond her control. A family of her own were nearly taken away from her. Yet her whole prospect of a family in future were saved just by the possibility of IVF, and without that I wouldn’t even have existed. Because of something that was beyond my control I am considered soulless? I was born the way I was, and that was just the way it was. I have a soul, I have emotions and I have a future. And that future only came to be from IVF. So I am glad that my mother made that choice, and had it.
So, to judge someone you do not truly know, and make such a big accusation just seems plainly ignorant. Test tube babies such as myself are human too, and they deserve the same respect as any other human.
This is a technology where female eggs, sperms and embryos are handled,and grown outside the human body , in a very special controlled environment. The embryos are then replaced into the mother’s womb after a few days, to grow further into baby
As a test tube baby myself, I see so many of these comments as incredibly immoral, rude, and ignorant. I am a completely average human being – I have two arms and two legs, two eyes and two ears, a nose and hair. And I also have a soul. Saying that I do not have a soul is just incredibly heartbreaking to me.
I actually started crying when I saw “Jane” had said ‘Therefore, under no circumstances does a test-tube human, animal or plant life contain a soul on any level!’
Can you even fathom how that makes me feel? People who don’t even know me and the millions of other IVF babies just go and say that we’re not even real people?! Now I’m crying again. It is so hurtful because I AM A REAL PERSON AND IT IS NOT THE RIGHT OF ANYBODY TO SAY THAT I AM NOT.
And guess what? I’m Roman Catholic! I believe in God! And I am a real, living and breathing person with a soul whose soul is feeling rather hurt that someone could be so ignorant and insensitive to say that I don’t even have a soul, and that I’m not even a real person.
The reason I was made a test tube baby was because my parents married in their late thirties and tried for years to have a baby but couldn’t. Eventually, they stumbled upon IVF, and they knew it was the right choice for them. It took them a few tries, and a stroke of luck brought them me. They donated the other living embryos, so I have biological brothers and sisters living out in the world that I may never meet. Who knows what they might do with their lives! A sister might find the cure for cancer (which my mom has), a brother might become the president.
Denying me and millions of others the right to humanhood is a terrible crime and if you think test tube babies do not have souls, go fuck yourself.
Nice to know some of you weirdos think that IVF babies like myself don’t have souls! I’m sure that REALLY helps win followers for Christ…
I´m a “test tube baby” and I´m very, very Catholic. I do feel connected to God in a very special way and I´m sure I have a soul that allows me to do that. I´m a top student at college as well, and I believe that science and religion don´t contradict. I didn´t choose to be a test tube baby and there is no reason why I should be “punished” by not having a soul.
Well, my mom attempted twice times to have me through IVF and failed, trying for four years to with my dad to have me. She turned to God and asked for a child and attempted IVF a third time and here I am. I believe God still has power to chose if the baby will grow in the womb or not, and I´m here to prove that.
And I´m sure my priest and church group also believe I have a soul, as well as many other members of the church. There are different philosophical currents within the church, and for obvious reasons the Bible doesn´t address this issue. We´re living beings guys, we do have souls.
I don´t have an account and its probably my first and last time on this page so I don´t answer to replies sorry.
“God has no control over the matter.” Did you reread what you wrote? You can do 1000 ivf’s if it’s not meant for you it won’t happen because god and only god decides. God created science for us to improve our lives; if he didn’t want a being to come Into this world it won’t work be it natural or ivf. God has dominion over ALL things; everything happens according to his will; and only GOD can give you a soul. He’s for forced??? That’s the funniest thing I heard this article is a joke and so are those popes for JUDGING!!
The spark of live is given at the fusion of man’s and woman’s seed as it was created to be and this is well known as the first heaven or realm of God’s creation, aka the womb of a mother, hence no cloning from singular sets of DNA has ever been successful and it is well known that babies that was not implanted into wombs have a huge probability of having serious physical side effects like cancer etc. If you don’t believe me read the link below from one of the head IVF scientists.
The soul is activated in the second heaven into live upon a persons first breath and every human needs to take the first breath to be able to live in this realm hence them encourage by doctors and first wives to take that first breath.
I would think the Creator if He exist like you ask and I believe He does, would safeguarded His creation and knew then that it will one day be possible for humans to do IVF processes and if this process are pushed to be outside His allowed feasibility to the point that it will destroy His creation, the realm we live in and hence us as well, His creation will destroy that and the process by default hence the existence of cancer, natural abortion, down syndrome and more.
He created the natural process to provide maximum guarantee to maximum success to have healthy offspring if you look carefully at the complexity of the whole process and how hard it is for a sperm cell to actually reach an egg, it’s guaranteed to a high propability of a healthy fusion of best genetic material, that is even before the process of natural selection of visible , personal, emotional and other attributes like simitry etc., hence we need to be careful to circumvent this so we do not create more problems than solutions and make sure we DO understand as much as we can before doing anything that can have adverse consequences like genetic modification can result in for instance, so we give our offspring maximum chance to be healthy and survive in a healthy planet, we were created in His image and have an obligation to our children to be responsible and not allow things be done behind closed doors and illumined dis-realities of self interested wika wonder worlds.
If you look at any forms of cloning on animals that did work on short periods, it involved 2 different DNA’s, never did it work from one singular DNA stream, it always died earlier in the latter case. also it is well known that incest results in these problems.
Hence, my conclusion, IVF babies will have a soul for sure, but chances are that physical problems and ancestral physical abnormalities can exist as with the exert below and the chances of the biblical curse to be enhance on their offspring in terms of probability rise because we do not live in the pperfect garden of Eden anymore and as long as man plays god we will not be able to create that. We’ve gone through the GMO of plants and seen the unexpected consequences and adverse destruction, if you have not please wake up for the sake of our planet!
Therefore, we are playing with fire as evident http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-195627/Expert-warns-IVF-timebomb.html. We should not allow these scientists to push the limits to far without them clearly understanding and also underestimating the importance of all facets of the continual creation process, it is dangerous for it will become more messy, there will be more divisions and will be more seed of Satan, more atheists that want to prove God wrong and christians will try and step on that concepts head, that is dis-realities that goes against creation, like foreinstance people that think they do not have a soul and others think they they do and others think souls do not exist and then rage a war because of that instead of loving and living in peace, in the end creating more divisions, wars, disharmony, pain, suffering, that is principalities created by gnosticism that Leeds do sepant head crunching, aka destroying of organisations founded on gnosticism and also heel biting, aka our lives are harder because we have to endure more abuse, more hard work, more division, more laws, more control and more suffering in sickness and health due to us following gnosticism and be our own gods and illumination, instead of accepting His creation and word as guideline within our own illuminative process. He said to the serpant, Gen 3:15 “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”
A simple example. scientist x and organisation Y figure a way to create artificial wombs using cloned DNA. They push this by covert lobbying using money from investors that are only interested in proffits, firstly due to the scientist promoting his own agenda aka scientific prowess and the organisation can make billions of money and we know how expensive IVF is. They both know there are genetic abnormalities, but hide the truth. You are person Z born from this process. You have at adulthood this genetic abnormality, you join thousands and millions of others to revenge and crush the movement that enabled this without making wise decisions and everyone else that allowed this to happen. Does this verse now suddenly make more sense. I do not include consequences like social isolation due to others knowing you were conceived this way and not accepting you in society etc. It gets messy and we need to discuss these first and make sure we don’t mess up before it is done. The problem these days is Money talks and we walk with bruised heels in this money empire and crush afterwards because of it, it is time to be proactively smart rather!
One thing I do know fore sure is that we were removed from knowing the tree of life and therefore will never be able to fully comprehend creation, is in the next verse Gen 3:24 “So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
Good luck to the scientist figuring that one out!
…You do realize that in IVF, the egg still fuses with the sperm… There’s literally no difference in the process except that the fusion happens in a scientific environment and not in the uterus. That’s the only difference…
I have to question if something forcibly conceived in a Petri dish does have a soul/spirit..then again I got to thinking last night. Supposedly the majority of IVF procedures fail but clearly some ivf created zygotes do decide to implant to the uterus wall and grow from there. So maybe “God” does sometimes put a soul into an ivf created being?
On another note cant see how the presence of a soul automatically makes a being precious if most souls are supposedly going to hell. That double standard I don’t get.
Maybe there is a God or maybe a group of “wise” men created the concept in an attempt to create a “civilised” society. I know what I think is more likely.
PS I may be a test-tube baby but I don’t know.
I was conceived by IVF to an amazing Christian family and have grown up to become closer to God…and this broke my heart.
I was also conceived by IVF to my loving family who by the way is Christian! I honestly didn’t know that a group of people hated my guts for being alive. I figured it out from browsing the web. I couldn’t, and still can’t comprehend how being alive is a bad thing. Another article said I have no soul, which I found utterly hilarious. Us test tube babies are just gonna have to laugh it off. All I have to know is my family loves me and most importantly, God loves me. I wonder if the writer ever thought. that we the test tube babies would reply. Haha.
PS: I wrote this with my birth petri-dish behind me.
A person is the combination of Soul, mind and body. Soul is deeply one with the human mind, and mind is deeply one with the body. Of course without the ‘first breath’ body cannot live. Soul is the seat of eternal life. If you have a human mind, that is the certainty of your soul. People who are mentally challenged, have the soul and the mind. But due to some problems their mind do not get matured or is sick, that will not affect their soul or eternal life. As the body begin to form, so also the mind and the soul; whether in the natural womb or artificial.
Self-awareness cannot be the product of biology, any way you look at it.
I would really like to know how many of these babies are christians. If we find out zero of them out of 4 millions, then they might actually not have a human soul. They have a soul, but not a human one. Just like in the time of noah.
And this would be extremely troubling. I expect the baby born recently from 3 parents will have a different kind of soul, who might not be considered human by God.
The Immaculate Conception does not refer to conceiving without sexual intercourse. The Immaculate Conception refers to Mary who was born free of original sin. I’m always surprised by how many CATHOLICS are ignorant of this. I wish everyone was better educated.
My child will be born through I v f which is a miracle from god and if the rest of you stupid ass wanna be priest an holy rollers don’t agree you can an will burn in hell you pieces of shit
You would appreciate the painter and painting of a rose and award for it saying woww what a creation. You would never look around in appreciation of the fact that there are so many beautiful roses in different colours and no two roses would be similar even in same plant , WHO created those , WHO designed those, WHO painted those. Science uses the things provided by GOD .